Ropetown

I apologize for deleting your original post in the other thread, Fresh. I meant to lock it originally but forgot. I'd love to have some discussion about this, so I'll repost for you:

Pretty much fresh wants a polearm.

trinket

If I were in his shoes, i'd be making a post something like that.

basically /agree

I agree with dkp for wipes but not loot council. Don't trust them, never will.

My last guild was loot council. I really like it for what its worth.

Stuff like no one wanting to spend dkp on trauma, b/c its not worth 40 dkp to only be used on some of the fights its good on.

But loot council has its issues like any method. If ppl don't 100% trust the officers, they think they are getting screwed out of times b/c the officers hate them/think they are bad.

i just think loot council is long and painful for the officers and promotes quitting the game and killing their families on rainy days

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i <3 zig

loot council just adds stress to already stressed officers.

adding dkp for wipes might be a good idea. it also can reward people for playing like idiots so it can go both ways.

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i like loot council. judge off dps/heal/tank consistency, attendance, share your opinion with other officers and come to a decision. I dont think anyone would feel bad. More ass kissing the officers. More reason to show up. More reason to play better. pretty sure there are mods that track this. If you are the type of person that like to start alot of shit, or be annoying then this is bad news. I just think its better to have a second opinion other than go by dkp. Im sure most of the time the officers do consult each other. Everyone knows BIS Items. Don't DKP Hoard just for that one item. Give it to the right person. Who would benefit more from it?

Thats pretty much what me and Zigg do. Cunsult each other. See who benefits more from it.

I would get infinitely less offspec loot for pvp if we did loot council

I just don't like gear being wasted. Whether it being awarded to people that don't deserve it through dkp, or by hoarding.

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Fanatic

I could go off on a long tangent about DKP but I will try to sum things up thusly: Whatever system people agree on / is best for the guild, we should NEVER rot gear that anyone can use in any capacity. There really is no good reason to do this. I think any loot system can overcome the silly robotic bits that force us to do this with minor tweaks or allowing a little officer input.

We should also try to never give it to offspecs over mainspecs for DKP reasons, but that's harder. Personal experience example: I could use a 2nd Cryptmaker in my Main Hand and gain ~100 or more dps, but I'd be down 40 DKP and last on every other, larger, upgrade. (Do weapons still need to cost this much, especially for dual wield classes?)

I love officer loot but only if there is an officer/leader with a very good memory and sense of fairness at the center of it all attending nearly every raid who wouldn't stress out about doing it. Otherwise, it's a fucking logistical nightmare. I think starting with tweaking our DKP system to fix the silly 'I'm going to never loot anything until this trinket that never drops actually drops' nonsense would go over a little better.

Fuck this post is still kind of long anyway

Edit: In Hate Plow we would pretty much put super-contested items (basically high ilvl weapons, trinkets, maybe some agi jewelry) in their own little pool and give them to the people who showed up the most and did not perform like shit, and tell everyone 'you can take X piece of offset gear and it won't impact on who gets the trinket at all, suck a dick'. Could probably do something like that with DKPs.

A much better solution would be for people to show a little courtesy to their guild members and pass on an item that they would have won to someone who can get a bigger upgrade out of it. Ie. Me passing Sargaz the 277 belt; he had a 245 while I had a 264.

Loot council is an inherently flawed system. No one is impartial. There will always be a bias towards or against someone. While DKP is not perfect, it is fair.

There are other remedies to prevent people who 'don't deserve loot' (Though why you are making the claim that there are some people like this, I do not know Fanatic - I personally cannot think of anyone who hasn't been an integral part of our progress during this expansion; ninja transfers and new applicants excluded of course) which the officers can peruse. Ie. Benching the person, recruiting over them.

I'm pretty sure loot council is out of the question. The only thing thing this has been used for in the past is legendaries. The exception to that was Bothi's, and that was because one officer out of the four of us had a huge issue, and still had an issue even after we voted, which was fair imo since we couldn't come to a unanimous agreement. Furthermore, I think loot council will take us too long to figure out in the middle of the raid. What sort of limit would be put on the number of pieces of loot a person can receive in a period of time? Wouldn't this 100% screw apps out of loot? That seems like a bad idea, especially when they're in an important role like a tank. Speaking of tanks, one thing that would be beneficial would be giving tanks tokens first in the future. Furthermore, I'm really uncomfortable deciding who deserves loot vs. who doesn't, and I think the other officers would feel the same way.

Zero sum dkp is a fair system. You are rewarded for showing up for raids, and you have the opportunity to decide for yourself what to save for. One thing that's helpful when people are hoarding is to discuss it with the people below you, come to some sort of agreement that works for those few people, then everyone takes loot if possible. This really only works if there are two or three people pretty far ahead of everyone else. In my opinion the one thing that could be better is getting dkp for wipes, but only for bosses that count as progression. Once we kill a boss we should, in theory, be able to kill it again in relatively few attempts. I think we would need to have some small amount of dkp for a certain number of wipes, say 10, and if we kill it in less or more the amount would change slightly. Remember that the highest dkp we'll get from a boss can be about 4, and that's really just from LK when all the weapons are taken or something similar. I don't really want to inflate the system too much because that will completely screw the people who have legitimate excuses for missing the raid.

We've made our dkp system even more fair imo by allowing offspec items to be bought for 2 dkp. Barely any items that are decent rot due to this. If they do, it means that everyone has it, or others don't play offspec (I don't bother taking healing gear for example).

Gape, I agree with you that some of the values for items should be changed. I don't think some of these values have been updated since the beginning of Sunwell, with the exception of trinkets, and things have obviously changed since then.

- 2 2hs cost 80 dkp, and with a gun/bow it's 110
- MH and OH costs 45 plus a relic/idol/sigil/totem/wand which brings it to 55
- MH and shield costs 55 plus relic/idol/totem brings it to 65, or with a gun or bow it's 85
- one 2h or a staff costs 40, plus a relic/idol/sigil is 50, or with a gun/bow it's 70
- two 1hs cost 60, plus a sigil/totem is 70, or with a gun/bow it's 90

I'm not sure if that's every combination, but it's obvious that there's some big differences there. There's definitely a problem when dps warriors have to spend 110 dkp for their weapon slots while dks only have to spend 70 or 50. These should definitely be worked out somehow especially for people who have to compete against each other for other loot. Would the most fair thing to have different values for each class/spec combination? God, that sounds awful.

I agree that people should keep in mind upgrading from 264 to 277, mostly when you're upgrading the same piece of loot. If you're upgrading from an item that was bought from a vendor or has stats that aren't ideal I'm more okay with that. Other than that, I wouldn't expect someone who has 258 to pass for someone who has 245. You have to remember that if someone has a ton of 245 pieces it means that they didn't spend a lot of 258 dkp, which in most cases is sort of screwing the raid for ICC. There's always exceptions, and sure - apps who came in undergeared have an excuse - or if a bunch of items never dropped there's an excuse, but it's just way too complicated to keep track of that for this long. Keeping track of most of this stuff will be difficult, and you have to consider the amount of work it'll take during the raid for me. I have to kill bosses too

I'm not sure how many raiders actually prepare for new tiers. When the bis list comes out for me, which is fairly early, I calculate how much of an upgrade each item will be for me. Then, I'll try to take loot only near the top of the list. There are usually 3-4 items within a fairly close range. Trinkets are often a huge upgrade, but I don't think they're really worth waiting for. You can wait for a trinket that's a 300-400 dps upgrade, which may not drop for many weeks, or you can get 300 dps upgrade from multiple pieces of gear. If everyone takes loot you could still possibly get the first trinket.

TL;DR: I don't like the idea of loot council; I think zero sum dkp is pretty fair; some item values should be changed; people might want to be considerate when upgrading from 264 to 277; and while hoarding is a personal choice, everyone should give more consideration to taking more loot - don't forget about our Ropetown luck on the items everyone saves for.

Ive always like Dkp systems with a cap, or "roof" on it. That forces you to save for one item and possible pay more (if your cap is 100 you can save over that 100, say your at 125, but if the item cost 40, you drop down to 60 dps so the item actualy cost 65)

If you spend under the cap items dont cost more. You will always have people horde dkp, or try to get the best item before eveyone else. What this system allows though is the 3-4 people going for the same items as that person can spend below him and when he does finaly get his item they have the same or more dkp then him but all that gear didnt go to rot because they didnt want to fall TOO FAR behind.

without this system if hording person a saves to 180 spends 40 and drops to 60.

person b below him spends at 100 everytime he can possible get 3 items for the one item person a saved too. Going back to what gape said, maybe now hes gotten 100 dps upgrade every item so in total 300 more dps, where the 1 item is only 200 dps upgrade. so in the end hes better off.

Im not sure we ever had a dkp disscussion when we had a cap there a lot of plus's too it. Of course the item cost and dkp caps can be adjusted for your values

some benifits for cap
-hurts horders
-allows more gear to be bought, raid gets stronger
-less rot
-prevents people from hording to keep up with the horders.

ps no i didnt spell check im in the middle of a company meeting typing this.