Ropetown

Hey everyone! Once again it's time to discuss our DKP system. As you may have read in my previous post, as well as one before that we have discussed many changes to our DKP system, and we have changed some things since then:

- Reducing the cost of offspec items to 2 dkp
- Prioritizing offspec loot for people who frequently raid on their offspecs
- Implementing loot council for highly desired items
- Not allowing applicants to receive loot over main raiders for a period of time (usually two weeks, subject to officer discretion)

There are more things we'd like to change. We have some ideas we've been discussing, but you guys had some good suggestions in the previous threads that we could expand on here. I split the topics for discussion into several replies, otherwise this would have been way too lengthy. I know it's long, but please read and reply.

Changing DKP costs - weapons

First, classes/specs that have different weapon requirements don't pay the same amount of dkp:

As an example of the problem, we can compare a fury warrior and a dual wielding frost DK (they do still DW, right?). Not even counting the ranged slot, the warrior pays almost twice what the DK does for his weapons. This puts him at a huge disadvantage when he wants to buy armor, and gap is even worse for jewelry and especially trinkets.

The thing is each 2 hand weapon grants more stats than each 1 hand. I know that the weapon DPs is the most important part and can account for a DPS upgrade in the hundreds, but the higher stat gain by comparison should probably be taken into account. The gap should definitely be smaller though. Does 5-10 points sound fair for the weapons? Additionally, there is the fact that bows and guns cost more than the other things in the ranged slot. For classes that only use these weapons as stat sticks I think we need to make the DKP cost equal to the other items for those slots, but we obviously run into a problem for hunters. We can make two values, but then we run into the problem of hunters paying more overall than classes that share their armor and jewelry stat needs. I think it's just too much to keep track of to have different values for different classes and specs, so I'd love to hear some suggestions.

Changing DKP costs - armor, jewelery, trinkets
Here are our current DKP costs:

Jewelery slots:
- 15: Rings, necks
- 30: Trinkets

Armor slots:
- 15: Cloaks
- 20: Bracers
- 25: Shoulders, belts, gloves, boots
- 40: Helms, legs, chest

Weapon slots:
- 10: Wands, totems, idols, relics
- 15: Caster offhands
- 30: 1h weapons, bows & guns
- 40: 2h weapons

As I have mentioned, we need to fix the weapon costs without making the system too difficult to handle. Trinket costs could be increased, and I think people are happy with the loot council system for this (please correct me if I'm wrong!). Suicide list system is working well for the tier tokens. I think the costs for the offset helms, chests, and legs are too high. As it currently stands, anyone who has a worthless 4pc tier bonus gets kinda screwed - they don't get an additional two pieces of DKP-free loot. If the two pieces they need cost 40 each it's even worse. It's bad whether they spend an additional 50 or 80, and they're at a huge disadvantage when trying to get other pieces. I don't see a good way to completely fix the problem without making the system too crazy, but I'd love some suggestions!

Zero sum DKP

In the other threads some of you suggested we should change our system. Here are a few I thought were interesting:


- Need the actual explanation of this.

I think our system has improved a lot with the changes we've made recently, and it will get even better once we change the item values. I'm hesitant to do a complete change.

A few people suggested that we award DKP for wipes. I don't think it's a bad idea, but I don't know how I feel about doing this for every single boss. Something like LK that we're going to be working on for months is another story. The problem, however, is that when you work on a boss for that long people end up getting all the loot they need from the previous bosses, making the extra DKP from wipes useless. Over time the incentive to show up to raids decreases. If we do this I would like it to be a very small amount - something like 0.08 or 0.1 for each person per wipe. This would amount to 6.4 or 8 DKP respectively for 80 wipes in a week, which was not uncommon for us when we worked on LK. I don't want it to be too high because I don't want people to be severely punished for attending to RL things that cause them to miss raids for a week or two. On the other hand, while we have never been a guild to strictly require 100% attendance, we have always expected our raiders to be reliable and maintain reasonable attendance. I'm not sure that people should be awarded just for doing what they're supposed to do in the first place. Furthermore, our loot council takes into account attendance, dedication, and reliability (see the following post) when we decide who should receive the best items in the game.

Loot council
Do you think we should include more people in the loot council? I think it might be a good idea. When there's an item I want I don't give much input unless I know that I definitely should not be in the running for the item due to being awarded previous items through loot council and so on.

No matter what loot system we use we'll never be able to make everyone happy, but people who think they've been slighted by the officers might argue that there's favoritism, or that the officers don't like certain people. I don't think some people understand exactly how we make our decisions. Loot council is based on things like attendance, performance, attitude, dedication, reliability, length of time in the guild, and other contributions.

10 & 25-man raids

The same items drop from both 10 and 25 man raids in Cata. We would like some feedback about how we should handle it if raiders who sat for the main raid run a 10man. It seems clear that we need to do something.

In conclusion...
If you've read my dissertation on DKP, THANK YOU! I would really appreciate your feedback. Let me know what you like, what you hate, and please give some suggestions if you think there's anything we can do to make things easier to track.

P.S. Vulture or Itera can you please make me vDKP / iDKP? <3

vDKP...I'm not familiar enough with the EQDKP to integrate them.

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I understand people fuck up once in awhile and have bad nights but I would like something to be done so that we recognize/reward people for being a good raider.

Just an idea of points being rewarded (being in the raid on time, not afking consistenly, or causing us to wait for you, not fucking us) that should be able to add up with our current dkp(possibly only used for weapons/rings/bracers/neck). Seeing how we take turns on tokens, and trinkets are getting counciled.

on another note i think that weapons, offhand, sigil/relic/bow should add up to the same cost(as a whole)for everyone. Only people i think should have most leeway or should not even be included is getting tanks geard. They can use their discretion. Because honestly i think they will need the most gear and have to reforge/change it out depending on the fight. IDK JUST SOME IDEAS

i think that falls into the "Loot Council" aspect of things Ces. i like Loot Council and i like DKP. the way things are is fine to me (there's a few changes such as item values, but that's really easy, and wouldn't sway too much either way).

this is the first guild i have ever been in that uses DKP (yeah, Too Soon uses the most fair Loot Council system i've ever seen). Loot Council (meaning every item gets counciled) for our guild just wouldn't work because of the amount of time this guild has used DKP for. you can't teach an old dog new tricks, and i think our DKP system works really well actually. you can plan items out and get a feel for what other people need/want (at least later in a raiding tier without causing loot collusion), and you can plan upgrades that way.

i mention point value changes but they're something that's been discussed a bit (offset pieces are too high, and weapon costs need to be normalized, at least in the case of Warriors/Hunters). i'm not exactly sure what fair values would be for them, but something that doesn't completely fuck who ever is forced (by spec) to grab extra stuff that ends up being the difference between DKP on a highly contested offpiece etc.

i'll use an example here (going to be some Hypotheticals, but bear with me): PlayerA grabs a 2handed Mace from a boss (they are an UH DK), PlayerB gets that same Mace and a 2handed Sword from another boss (they're a Titan's Grip Fury Warrior), because they're spec requires that they have 2 2handed weapons (pretend for a second Single Minded Fury isn't viable at all). that is double DKP for them.

i personally think the 2nd 2hander should cost the same as a caster offhand (15 DKP compared to 40), or you should raise the cost on caster offhands to match shields (Offhands ARE enchantable now), and make the cost for the 2nd 2hander something else.

stat stick weapons (Bows/guns for warrs, rogues etc) should cost the same as wands/sigils/etc. the statistics have been normalized for these items. they all grant similar stats, and should have a similar cost.

this really only screws hunters, but you could surely adjust the cost on their weapons to make it work (i know that is a lot of work to do, but i'm sure something could be worked out).

suicide list works well for tokens. let me know if you want me to explain or clarify any suggestion i had, because i know sometimes i don't make much sense.

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do you see something... written in the stars tonight?

THIS IS THE BEST SYSTEM I HAVE EVER SEEN
I am still on good terms with the officers and some others over there if we need to steal their client or w/e they use.


Assisted Merit System
Raiding Rainbow uses an Assisted Merit System to award and distribute loot. What this means is:
Raiders are awarded "fake dkp", which is split into three categories:
-Raid Points, which are a representation of your attendance.
-Item Points, which are a representation of your looted items.
-Fuck-up Points, which represent the number of recent raid wipes you have caused. More on this later.
Officers use Item and Raid Points to determine the ideal winner.
In cases where referring to Raid and Item Points will not suffice, officer discretion will take into account several other factors, including but not limited to:
Seniority
Player Skill
Guild Contribution
Fuck-up Points™


What are Raid Points?
Raid points are, essentially, a number that indicates your attendance over the last 60-day raiding window.

How do I earn Raid Points?
Raid Points are awarded in 10-minute intervals. What this means is:
Every 10 minutes, a snapshot of the raid is taken. As long as you've attended at least 5 of those minutes, you will be awarded 1 Raid Point.
If you are not physically in the raid, you will be added to the wait list groups (groups 6 to , and be awarded dkp in the same method.
If you go offline, you have 10 minutes to log back in, or you will be removed from the raid and will no longer gain Raid Points.
If you are queued in a wait list, and are not readily available when we need you to come in, your points for the night will be wiped.
What are Item Points?
Item Points are a representation of the loot you have received over the last 60-day raiding window.

How do I earn Item Points?
Every time you 'purchase' an item, you gain Item Points equal to the value of that item. You never spend item points, only gain.

How are Item Costs determined?
Prior to entering the instance, the officers go through the loot tables and assign each drop a Rank, from 1 to 6.
The Rank of an item will generally be equal to it's quality:
Rank 1 - White
Rank 2 - Uncommon
Rank 3 - Rare
Rank 4 - Epic
Rank 5 - Legendary
Rank 6 - Artifact
In exceptional cases where items are vastly superior to those of similar items, such as being higher item level, having much more desirable stats, etc, they will be assigned a higher rank.
In exceptional cases where items are vastly inferior to similar items, they will be assigned a lower rank.
When there are items that are more common than their counterparts, such as trash drops, we may assign them a lower rank.
All tier items will be set to Rank 3.
After the Item Rank is determined, the cost of the item is then multiplied by the Zone Modifier.
The Zone Modifier is a number that we used to multiply the Rank by to determine the finally item cost.
The harder the instance, the higher the Zone Modifier will be, thus further increasing the item cost. An example would be Sunwell Plateau having a Modifier of 13, while BT may only have a modifier of 8.
Ok, so how are Item Costs determined?
Item Rank * Zone Modifier = Final Cost

EXAMPLE (mine) from Elenya's POV

!i = interest

[R][Elenya]: [Deathbringer's Will] 277 accepting bids now
[w:from][Happycheese]: !i mainspec
[w:from][Sargaz]: !i mainspec skuz
[w:from][Gape]: !i mainspec
[Officer chat][Elenya]: [Deathbringer's Will] 277 Bids:
[Officer chat][Elenya]: name............spec........raidpts,itempts, FUPs
[Officer chat][Elenya]: Happycheese: mainspec 50,40,1
[Officer chat][Elenya]: Sargaz: mainspec skuz 50,90,1
[Officer chat][Elenya]: Gape: mainspec 45,25,0
[Officer chat][Elenya]: Gape
[Officer chat][Durnk]: gape
[Officer chat][Dobdob]: Gape
[Officer chat][Flipoit]: gape
[Raid][Elenya]: [Deathbringer's Will] 277 awarded to Gape for 20 item points.
... next item and so on.

Gape was the logical choice since he has gotten less loot and had 0 fuck-up points even if he had slightly less attendance. He got the item for 20 points: Item Rank * Zone Modifier = Final Cost
the item is a 277 epic, so it's a rank 5 (or whatever rank the officers give it). and ICC is the 4th zone in Wrath. so 5 *4 = 20.


To me this is the perfect balance btwn loot council and DKP.

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I've only raided with zero sum dkp guilds and imo it's the best system out there. Honestly, to me the most important part about dkp is distributing the loot quickly so that we dont spend 15 minutes in between every wing deciding which of our dumb rouges gets kiss of the spider. Anything that helps Elenya get the dkp recorded easier would be great too. A vDKP system that integrates the dkp data into the game would be perfect.

As far as offspec loot goes I've probably spent more dkp than anyone else in the guild on offspec stuff and I could honestly care less how much it costs. People are always going to game the system and losers like bairdy aren't going to spend points until they have the loot they want no matter how much offspec costs. It's annoying to always be the last person to get the trinket or weapon but that's something I stopped caring about years ago. It's just human nature. You're never going to be able to convince some people to pick up loot if it means they won't be able to get the item they have their heart set on first.

basically i dont give a fuck about dkp extremely hard. it's important obviously for Elenya because she runs it so it would be nice if we could improve on our current system but i'm going to continue to loot gear for every spec and you guys should too.

that's probably why people look at you as the best Druid Yakub. because you're willing to do shit that other people (including myself) aren't.

offspec items should be the least of anyone's concern, because if you're ever needed to go offspec you should be able to do so. i personally use badge items/shadow gear for if i ever had to heal. is it the best? definitely not, but my gear is always adequate for whatever we're raiding without looting offspec gear from raids. i personally don't loot offspec stuff because i know i most likely will never have to heal. this prevents me from taking an item as offspec that someone else could use for an offspec that they would possibly raid as (even if it is once in a blue moon, or for a fight or 2). i've always tried to maintain reasonable gear for any spec or alt, because you never know if an encounter will require 6 warlocks/mages, or if someone doesn't show up and we need a buff (IE: i raided 2 weeks on Perforate to give us a buff because our warlocks were unable to raid).

these are all things that i would factor into a loot system (which if we tweak numbers a bit, i feel is fine), in both the DKP and Loot Council aspects of things. i feel like what we've got going is fair, and i don't see a reason to shake shit up and confuse the hell out of people, or potentially cheese someone.

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do you see something... written in the stars tonight?

i'm not a huge fan of docking DKP for screw-ups unless you're talking about major ones. otherwise it becomes so subjective that people are going to bitch at officers all the time and their job sucks enough as it is. and for things like people not moving out of a bad defile...dock the whole raid?...have fun Elenya!...oh wait, some people were dead before that...and Bothi swears he wasn't in it...now you have to check that...oh and the wait list people...one less officer two months into expansion.

edit: Yakub and I touch on the same point. Doing DKP SUCKS ASSHOLE. Seriously, it does, and I like having Elenya around.

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vulture start being useful and turn that idiotic attendance graph thing into a dkp mod

you forget that waitlist, item points, attendence points, etc are done by a mod and automatically updated to their site. Nothing is done by hand except fuck up points and they are in extreme "it was fucking obvious you caused the wipe" times, like standing in a shadow trap. Not the defile situation you quoted. 0 fucking tolerance for people starting shit over whether or not they deserve one imo.
Loot went by faster than how we do it here and tbh "one less officer 2 months in" screams "dealing with loot is annoying, omg it's so hard" when it's not.
In AMS there is no dkp, so there is no reason to hoard.

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